I disagree with this whole trust level nonsense. Higher levels of trust in regards to the amount of previously successful edits and levels would probably mean that I myself as a seasoned, experienced Level 9 guide with previously 5200 approved edits now can't even get the simplest map marker to be moved. Do you like your college to be on the other side of the river? Or a telecommunications store in a parking lot? Or your restaurant in the same position as a competitor's? Why can't we use someone else's photos if Google Maps won't even bother seeing our own? Does this mean that now 70+ of my unfairly not approved edits mean that I'm now less trustworthy? I didn't think so, it does have to do with the API and the Google Maps approver AI, I swear it on my dog.
I have been getting the majority of my edits being rejected/not applied since Tuesday last week (AET). Almost everything, from names, categories, to even the simplest map marker movements. Can you confirm that this diminish in "perceived trust level" occurred just today, or has there been a trend over the past few days?
My previous batch of edits was done on Friday (13 Oct.) afternoon, around 4pm EDT (which was Saturday 6am AET). In that batch, I made three marker moves, and all three were published instantly. So it seems that if the software has been broken, it was broken in a way that affected different users or different parts of the world at different times, over three days apart.
As you say, the whole thing makes no sense, and appears to be a bug, although I'm sure Flash would have some elaborate explanation as to why this is exactly how things are supposed to work.
I'm afraid that you have misunderstood what I have written, I am sorry if I was unclear.
If you re-read, you will see that I have acknowledged the possiblity of an algorithm shift from the beginning.
Google is certainly not infalliable. In the past we have seen things break and no one can edit. We've also seen issues where all edits get denied. And yes, issues can be localized to be in a certain area or certain types of edits, those too we have experienced in the past. Unless it is an incredibily specific type of error, when Maps or the related tools actually break the at least a couple of the top mappers notice right away, and we are able to confirm as we get dozens of reports fairly immediately. For specific types of errors we might not notice ourselves but we will be also affected by and can recreate the error. Connect Moderators and Maps TCs have the ability to escalate such situations, and Google usually starts working on a fix within minutes.
We have also seen the algorithms get noticeably adjusted many different times. Most adjustments are unnoticable, the algorithms are constantly being adjusted and the tweaks will not affect most serious mappers. Google's goal is to get as much of the information offered onto the map and thus the try to keep the restrictions and filters as low as possible, but when too much bad information starts getting onto the map, whether from innocent people that don't understand how to map or from malicious people looking to spam or ruin the map, they must tighten the algorithms. This will always result in some additional edits going into review or being denied; with the amount it affects any one person being dependent on their trust level.
Basically, when the spammers figure out methods to get around the current algorithms, new ones must be put in place. This is a constant fight, and it is not confined to just Maps. Google must play a balancing game with trying to not restrict your contributions too much while at the same time trying to maximize the filtering of bad edits and spam.
Currently the situation of something breaking has not occurred; as stated when that happens we are all affected and we get plenty of reports. If something had broken, I too would see it affect my edits. If it was specific to a particular area or type of edit then I would have been unsuccessful in editing those POIs you posted as examples.
If something has occured, it is an algorithm update. I cannot say if such an update has occured, as for a noticable update normally there are more reports than a few over a couple of days. In response to your post I reached out to multiple people and none reported any difference in their editing, but then these are mostly people that have mapped for years and have edit counts in the tens and hundreds of thousands with trust levels to match. But if your feeling is correct that an alogrithm update has occurred, it is normal and will not be "fixed", as there is nothing broken. It is unfortunate that they have to occur, but it is not Google's fault, but rather those that contribute junk to the map.
From experience normally any tightening of the algorithms smoothes itself out after about a week or two as the algorithm settles in and is fine tuned.
As always, please consider the points in this post when you experience a denial. Both of these features had other issues and those might have contributed towards being unable to verify your edits. Among other issues, map marker moves can be problematic when the addresses cannot be verified; in both these cases the city has been listed as North York rather than the correct city of Toronto. The system is aware when the marker position you suggest does not match what city polygon that position is within and that will be a consideration in the review. I knew that if I changed the marker position and the city at the same time as normally done it would almost certainly go into review for a few months, so I moved the markers first to confirm whether there was an issue or not. I then made the city edits after, both of which are in review as is normal for city edits. Had my inital marker moves been denied then my next step would have been to completely correct the POIs during the edit; and that would be my suggestion for you for future edits in this area.
In summary, at no time was I trying to say you were incorrect in your perception that you are being denied more. As I was able to confirm that there is nothing broken, I was simply trying to explain how the algorithms might now be affecting you.
Flash - LG Connect Moderator, Maps Platinum Product Expert, Map Maker Platinum Product Expert, RER and Regional Lead
Due to the volume I receive, I do not respond to unsolicited private messages
@Flash wrote: Currently the situation of something breaking has not occurred; as stated when that happens we are all affected and we get plenty of reports. If something had broken, I too would see it affect my edits.
So basically what you're saying is, this change can prevent long-time contributors like @Briggs and others who helped build Maps from continuing to contribute, but that's okay, it's not really broken unless it personally affects you, @Flash. Yeah, that sounds about par for the course for you.
Among other issues, map marker moves can be problematic when the addresses cannot be verified; in both these cases the city has been listed as North York rather than the correct city of Toronto.
You should let Canada Post and the government know about this, because they believe the entire M3B postal code area is in North York, as you can easily verify on their official site. While North York is part of the Greater Toronto Area, addressing rules for Canada stipulate that all addresses in the North York district be listed as "North York, Ontario", not "Toronto". Perhaps you should tell the Canadian authorities they're wrong; Google says so.
@Flash, I don't wish to be rude, so I'll phrase this as politely as I can: it is sad that Google's community face for the leading mapping software in the world is someone who exhibits such poor understanding of both software and mapping.
I can see the possibility of when an editor is trying to suggest an incorrect city into the address where the system might deny it or flag it for review.
Please don't confuse Canada Post with the government, while they are a crown corporation they are not the government. They are also not an addressing authority, they have their own system that allows mail to be delivered across the country.
I'm reading this as an attack on Flash while he's saying that it is not affecting him, to me he is referencing the power mapping community as a whole. There are a large number of other mappers with very high trust in Canada and around the world with many times the 5,000 edits you are claiming make you an experienced mapper. A large-scale issue would have much more than two reports. Having dealt with large-scale issues with Google's mapping products before I agree with Flash. As Flash has suggested perhaps the best thing would be to be patient for a few days, perhaps after a weekend since most Google employees don't work on the weekend in case they are working on the algorithm.
While your last sentence claims to be polite. I see it as a specific put down and demeaning of a person who volunteers a large amount of his time, helping the mapping community and has done so for far longer than the Local Guides program has existed. Flash's interpretation and understanding of Google's software and mapping practices have been time and time again questioned by people, and supported by Google. While he is not infallible there is a lot of learning and conversation that has gone on with Google to provide the answers he does, when Google provides updated guidance Flash passes that guidance along to others.
Google Maps Platinum Product Expert, Top Contributor for Google Map Maker (Product Retired) and Regional Lead (Product Retired).
I ran into the same issue yesterday. I moved the marker for a storefront from the middle of a major street to the actual location. In addition I added a photo WITH the GPS information included in the photo metadata and Google rejected within seconds as 'cannot be verified'. A subsequent move requested 30 or so minutes later (after Google could have processed the metadata from the photo) was also immediately rejected. Clearly however the location was originally added was very incorrect (off by about 1/10 of a mile). I am tempted to start posting reviews stating the Google Maps location is wrong and Google refuses edits to correct it...especially since no one from Google wants to involve themselves with the Local Guides who are trying to improve Maps free of charge. Just because our helps costs nothing doesn't mean it is worth nothing.
It would be nice if we had a clear example from Google Maps of what is needed to substantiate marker moves or any other edit since probably 10% or more of mine are rejected irrespective of evidence I provide. I would have thought GPS in photos would be sufficient but clearly it is not.
@GregMcG, there's no need to dive into constitutional law here. I never said that Canada Post is the government. What I said was "...Canada Post and the government..." (emphasis added here). Yes, Canada Post and the government--both federal and provincial--use this addressing scheme. If you try to change your address on the Canada Revenue Agency or the Service Ontario websites to "808 York Mills Rd, Toronto, ON M3B 1X8", you'll get an error, and be forced to correct to "808 York Mills Rd, North York, ON M3B 1X8". This isn't a Canada Post quirk, it's the standard addressing format prevailing in Canada. The amalgamation of Toronto may have changed wards and councillors, but it did not change anyone's address.
If Google Maps uses its own, unique "physical address" format for businesses, it does a poor job at communicating this fact to its users. I have not seen anything that would suggest that addresses on GMaps are different from those listed on that business's permit, which--if issued in Ontario--would list anything in the M3B postal code as "North York". Feel free to verify that with Service Canada, Service Ontario, or the City of Toronto.
As for the alleged "attack" on Flash, I believe he was very clear in his statement, and it is somewhat disingenuous to try to spin this into what it never was. To quote him verbatim: "If something had broken, I too would see it affect my edits." Not "we", not "the rest of us"; just "I too". If Flash can't replicate a bug, it doesn't exist. And this isn't something that just popped up here. This attitude from Flash has been consistent through almost every thread I've seen him take part in. He'll go through Olympic-grade acrobatics just to avoid admitting something is a bug. At one point, he even suggested we can edit a restaurant's name, address, phone number and website but not the link to its menu as a "feature" to protect from spammers/scammers.
I never accused Flash of bad faith. I know he volunteers countless hours to this project, and has amassed considerable knowledge that benefits us all. However, he also has a tendency to present speculation and hypotheses as fact, and overestimate his own knowledge in some cases. He does this with the best intentions, but the result is counterproductive. Again, this isn't an ad hominem, but rather a criticism of certain posting patterns. Flash is a great contributor to this community, and could be an even greater contributor if he kept these points in mind. I'm not interested in admonishment, but in improvement.
As for the substantive issue at hand, I have no problem waiting a few days until this bug is fixed algorithm is tweaked and we can move markers again and improve maps. I came here to investigate a problem, not to pick fights.
2022
